The Sermon on the Mount summarizes Jesus’ radical, non-religious stance on spiritual living. By encouraging us to behave meekly, not to stockpile food and money for the future, and not to fight back when someone does you wrong, it remains a radical spiritual writing even today. In this age where so many are fighting, yelling, arguing, storming, and rioting in the name of deeply held beliefs, how practical is that guidance in our world? Rich Tafel, Pastor of Church of the Holy City in Washington DC and host Johnny Guidry discuss the Sermon on the Mount and its modern-day application from a spiritual, non-religious perspective.
Learn more about Swedenborg and the Swedenborgian Christian denomination at www.Swedenborg.Org or explore Reverend Rich Tafel’s Church, the Church of the Holy City at HolyCityDC.org. Email Rich Tafel at RevTafel@HolyCityDC.org
For similarly-themed episodes, try The Ancient Truths of Acceptance & PLINKO or Surrender to Greatness
To read the Sermon on the Mount, check out Matthew Chapters 5-7. A link to those chapters in the NIV Bible is here.
A transcript of the episode is offered below. Please note that the transcription is done automatically by software, so please excuse any errors.
Ever since you can remember, you felt something in your chest telling you to move, to love, to speak, to try day after day. You pretend you don’t hear calling. Maybe you dismiss it as silliness or worse, but it’s there ready for you and blue wave for you. And as long as you mean, my name is Johnny G and I invite you to join me on a journey of awakening as we dare to embrace our light. This is refractive.
Speaker 1 00:00:47 Hi everybody. And welcome to another episode of refractive. I am here today with, uh, someone who I met, uh, maybe about two years ago. Now he is the pastor of a church that I attend. And, uh, I’m really pleased to introduce him to you. His name is rich. Toffel rich Toffel is a leader at the intersection of faith politics and social impact as pastor of church of the holy city in Washington, DC. In 2016, he launched a spiritual entrepreneur center, bringing inner life with social impact. Rich serves on the governing board of the national council of churches, where he’s a member of the Christian Muslim dialogue and the interfaith table ordained in the Swedenborgian church. Rich is a graduate of Harvard divinity school and served as the assistant minister at the Memorial church of Harvard university. Rich also serves as the founding director of Marcom social capital advisors since 2016, there he matches impact investors to vetted social ventures. He also founded public squared as a strategy and coaching company focused on supporting social impact businesses, coaching over 400 clients through all of his work in faith, politics, and business. He’s motivated to help those without a voice to live in a more just world. And all of those reasons are why I’m happy to present him to the listeners of refractive. Rich, how are you doing today?
Speaker 2 00:02:14 I’m doing great, Johnny. It’s great to see you. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:02:16 Absolutely same here. And, um, I thought that we could spend some time today talking about a really central part of, of the gospels. Um, this is more specifically referring to the sermon on the Mount, which is one of Jesus’s most iconic teachings. And I have always felt that it’s revolutionary and its message. And, uh, so I thought someone with your background with your passion, uh, would be able to be a good partner to work with me, to share this with listeners who may not be so familiar with it, to understand how, in my view it was Jesus reaching to people who were outside of the confines of religion and dogma, and really providing a spiritual path rather than a religious path for elevating your life, elevating your soul presence and, uh, changing how you show up in the world. And I think that’s really massive.
Speaker 2 00:03:20 Yeah, it’s real easy. You got the right word there. It really is revolutionary in that sermon on the Mount, he takes a lot of traditional ways of looking at the world, uh, the powerful, the strong, the mighty, and he flips it and basically says that the kingdom of heaven or the way to heaven or the spiritual path, all of those happen the opposite way, the meek, the poor, those that are not violent. And so it was radical. Then, as you said, he was a really a criminal among the religious establishment that’s who was really most upset. And frankly, his message today, even for your listeners, they would be very surprised probably if they read it because it doesn’t correspond to what they may associate with Christianity. In other words, Christianity in many ways has fallen into the same trap as the religious fundamentalists of his time who condemned it. And though they would use the name Jesus or Christ as what they’re following. Um, that message is still radical. It’s still not being acted on. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:04:20 Absolutely. And I think that you specifically are a really strong, um, choice as a guest to come talk on this because of the nature of the Swedenborg faith. And I would love for you to share with the listeners just a little bit about what this, uh, Christian denomination believes, how it observes Christianity, um, and, uh, you know, because I think it could be eyeopening. Sure.
Speaker 2 00:04:52 Yeah. It’s a, it’s a V it’s a somewhat obscure, uh, Christian denomination, but it’s basically a Christian mysticism. So it’s a little outside of the traditional Christianity and it believes in Jesus has God. So that’s a traditional thing. It believes in the Bible, but it doesn’t see the Bible as a literal book that you would go to and literally interpret the story from the old Testament and apply that today. It would require interpretation and even a deeper spiritual understanding of the scriptures that makes it different. Um, it’s mystical in the sense that the, the Emanuel Swedenborg Christian scientist mystic said he saw heaven and hell, which is pretty out there. That’s very mystical. And in that experience, uh, he saw, wow, uh, in the next life, all faith paths, um, were welcoming to heaven. That was a radical statement. Uh, he also saw that many, uh, people who had been Christian leaders, um, were in the other place hell and he describes him heaven and hell in a very different way than traditional Christianity, as opposed to somewhere, you would go on a judgment day and you’d be, they’d look at your life or what you do.
Speaker 2 00:06:01 You proclaim a certain belief. You go to heaven or hell. He says, basically we begin that decision-making process in our life through our action. So when we’re loving another person, we’re on a path to heaven. When we are engaged in selfish, domination and evil were on a hellish path. And then after we pass from this world, we basically joined the community that shares our love. And so that freedom has to allow for people who are evil to be together. And, uh, that that would be their choice. It’s not a condemnation to hell. So that’s, that’s a very different way of looking at it as well. So I think the idea that all faith paths are good. Your purpose here on earth is to be useful and of service. It’s critically important. So it’s not afterlife focused. You don’t behave certain ways on this planet to get into heaven or to avoid hell.
Speaker 2 00:06:55 You actually behave in this world because that’s what you’re called to do, which is to be a fight for justice fight for the least of these is, is your purpose. And it’s to love your, to love God is to love your neighbor. You can’t do one without the other. So it’s a very, um, it has a very active life in this world. It’s, it’s not that. So those are some of the biggest differences. It’s a very evolutionary and its view of the Bible and of life. It believes the world is evolving spiritually. It believes we evolve spiritually and it believes that the Bible is almost a guide book of spiritual evolution. More than I say, say a history or a science book.
Speaker 1 00:07:32 And I mentioned, go ahead,
Speaker 2 00:07:33 Please. Just say, does that make sense? That’s absolutely.
Speaker 1 00:07:36 To me it, well, to me it makes sense. So, uh, I hope for the listeners to, I’ve mentioned in earlier episodes that while I don’t consider myself to be a traditional Christian, um, that I do go to a church and it’s your church. And, um, I remember the first time that you and I met, I had requested for us to have a conversation so that I could learn more about your church. I had kind of stopped and found a brochure and read about it. And I thought that, um, for me, what I wanted was to go to a place where I could be in the same, um, proximity with other people who are, um, I mean, worshiping would be the traditional terms, but for me it’s more about like elevating my vibration and, and, and, you know, just surrendering into the spiritual moment. And I wanted to, to, to, to be in the presence of other people doing that. And that’s why I started going to your church. And I told you that I don’t come from a place where I see Jesus as my Lord and savior. And what does that mean for my place in your church? And I was really interested in, in your response. So I would like for you to, um, share that, uh, how do you reconcile the fact that you believe that Jesus is Lord, um, yet also have a belief system that all faiths have a path?
Speaker 2 00:09:09 Yeah. It’s not mutually exclusive. There’s a view that if you believe in Jesus, it’s a binary, therefore I’ve got to condemn everybody else. If you look at Jesus or Christ consciousness, um, having, coming into the world as the path of love than anybody who was on that path is engaging in that energy. They could call it different things. And my experience in my life has been that many people who use the word Christian, which would say I’m a follower of Jesus have been some of the more darker forces I would even say hellish forces. Um, it makes me angry because they are branding Christianity for a lot of people as this sort of shame-based judgmental, condemnation, um, and hypocritical generally, there’s a lot of hypocrisy in those groups. Uh, and so, uh, for me, uh, I’ve also worked with a lot of people of all face.
Speaker 2 00:10:01 As, as you mentioned, I do Christian Muslim dialogue. I’ve worked a lot in the Jewish community and I’ve worked a lot with Buddhists. And, um, and I work with a lot of atheists and particularly in my coaching practice, that was really fascinating in my coaching practice that clients would say to me, rich, I had to overlook the fact that I saw you were a minister. He was a coach because I’m atheist. What I have found to be true. And this fits in actually with our tradition is that people who would call themselves agnostic or atheist many times live a life of love to the neighbor, much better than people who have a, who call themselves Christian. So I’m not so interested in so much what you say. Um, I would say I’m much more curious. What do you do? Who are, are you working on it?
Speaker 2 00:10:54 Are you humble? Are you reflecting on your life? Are you trying to be a better person every day? Um, and how that works? The tricky part for me though, Johnny, you said something really interesting about coming to a group. I have found in my life that I’ve, uh, maybe the hardest thing has been forgiveness, for example, and that’s powerful spiritually. I don’t know how people who don’t tie into a spiritual energy of some kind can do that, but they must. So for me, I’m, I’m humble by my faith. It doesn’t make me proud. It’s like I couldn’t do those things without a faith and I can’t do it alone. I think a lot of America particularly are radically individuals and are a lot of our spiritual seeking is radically individual. I think we have to do this in community, as you were describing. And in our service, as you mentioned, the sermons pretty short and the service is very short. It’s a half hour, but we talk and discuss and dialogue for an hour. To me, that’s more important. I want to hear the diverse voices now everybody’s seeing it. And let’s all learn from each other from the different perspectives. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 00:11:58 Yes. And I know as well that you were involved in, uh, as I mentioned during your bio, uh, you were a gay activist and you’re still involved in many instances like that. So what is, uh, what’s the belief system of homosexuality as relative to the Swedenborgian faith?
Speaker 2 00:12:20 Well, we do, uh, ordain gay ministers, which is obviously me and I’m at the national church and being quite supported. So we’re a very welcoming church. This is all probably in the last couple of decades. So this is an evolving thing. It’s an unusual and new thing. I will say when I started my path toward becoming a minister in my twenties and went to divinity school and I worked at the chapel at Harvard, I also was coming out and to a person, everybody said, you need to find a new career. And that was true. So there was no path forward for me, even though I had been ordained and I switched kind of into politics and public policy, but, uh, I’ve come full circle back to a church, but I, I was quite bitter, frankly, myself. Sure. Because, um, I was dealing, I was an aids activist and I was also a gay activist. So Mo most of my encounters with so-called Christians were in debates sometimes bitter debates, sometimes cruel debates. And so, uh, I got to see up close and personal, um, how negative Jesus could be portrayed. And I was in some cases fighting for Jesus when I would be debating or arguing basis.
Speaker 1 00:13:29 Yeah. All right. Um, well thank you for giving us some background into your faith, because for me, uh, the stuff that you shared with the listeners is why I feel so at ease with bringing you onto the show, because I know that you and I have no argument, we have no disagreement like our, our beliefs dovetail, um, in a very, uh, very lovely way. And, uh, so thank you in advance for coming on and talking about this, um, the Bible, which is a topic that my listeners might not expect me to have a show on. Um, but I feel strongly that, um, the Bible is chock full of just timeless, beautiful wisdom for how to, uh, how to live a freer life, how to live a life of serenity and joy and abundance and flow. And I think the, the, uh, the sermon on the Mount for me is a combination of all of that.
Speaker 1 00:14:27 So what do you say we dig in? Sure. Let’s dig in. So the be attitudes are something that so many of us, I went to a Catholic school as a kid, and, you know, the beatitudes were something that we learned early on and they are, uh, the first part of the sermon on the Mount. So I’ll go ahead and read the beatitudes for listeners who may not be as familiar with them. And then I’d love to hear from you. Um, what think the practical, useful messages for us are in this, in these verses. Now, when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up, oh, and this is, uh, Matthew chapters five through seven is the sermon on the Mount. Now, when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountain side and sat down. His disciples, came to him and he began to teach them.
Speaker 1 00:15:13 He said, blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn for they will be comforted, blessed are the meek for, they will inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness for they will be filled. Blessed are the merciful for, they will be shown mercy, blessed are the pure in heart for, they will see God blessed are the peacemakers for, they will be called children of God. Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me rejoice and be glad because great is your reward in heaven for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you so rich, what do you think is the practical guidance for us? And why is this so revolutionary?
Speaker 2 00:16:05 Well, I guess we could go through each one, but I think primarily what it’s doing is, um, what’s fascinating is the world of today is not that different in many ways, its values of, uh, 2000 years ago, when he’s speaking to the audience, we can both kind of understand that let’s just talk about today. The value system today would pretty much say to be successful, is to have money, have a lot of money, um, have a lot of power, money, power, dominion, over other people, control of people. Um, celebrity status, maybe, um, your well-known, um, material items, um, you know, beautiful home, beautiful car, beautiful appearances. So very materialistic worldview. And that was certainly true in his time. It’s radically true today. And the beatitudes kind of flip all of that. They basically say, um, if I would sum up in one thing, you know, blessed are the meek, blessed are the weak, bless it are the losers. Bless it are the underdogs. Bless it are people who are persecuted bless it are people who are suffering. It flips that whole narrative that, um, what the world sees as successful is not successful successful is these other positions often that appear weak in the world, but are loving, caring, compassionate, creating justice, doing good, and being at peace in your own heart happiness. So it flips the whole narrative. It’s erratic. It’s just surprising how radical it is today that we’re still in a world where it runs against the grain completely.
Speaker 1 00:17:40 Yeah, that’s right. And you know, for people who would say, well, I don’t aspire to be wealthy. I don’t aspire be famous. I don’t aspire, you know, for, for the power and celebrity that rich just mentioned. I mean, I would say, you know, it just happens to look a little different in our world, but we look for promotions at work. We look to be managers, right? We look for raises and it doesn’t mean that we need to be, uh, wealthy and powerful in the legendary sense. We look for security in more money, uh, more validation, more freedom, quote, freedom, right. In being a decision maker, let’s say in the workplace. And, uh, and so it’s the same, it’s the same thing in a slightly different costume, you know, and I know for me, I clawed my way as high up as I could, as I could day after day after day and work, because I believed that was the way that I was going to find freedom and peace. That one day I would get to a level where I no longer needed to struggle. And like, we all, like, we know, like that’s, that’s ludicrous, that’s false. It’s illusion. It’s a lovely, lovely fantasy it’s mythology.
Speaker 2 00:19:02 Right? I think you’ve, you’ve, you’ve flipped it really well. The success cannot be gained externally. It, you can’t buy it. You can’t, it sounds cliche. You can’t buy it. You can’t measure it by how many followers you have on Instagram or how many people, um, think you’re the, you know, you’re great. It, those are all outside measurements. It really has to be a peace that passes all understanding the same heart, regardless of circumstances. And you can’t get that from just the outside. Whereas in the most that we have to integrate, we have to live in this outside world, but to be dominated by what success says by that, it has to be an inner journey. And we have to transform ourselves on an interior set. What’s interesting to me, as you’re speaking is that during COVID this last year, the number of people who have a kind of close to my age, a lot, mainly men, because most of my clients have been women for coaching.
Speaker 2 00:19:59 But lately men closer to my age or older who have done that ladder, they have done it. They are on the, a list. They are famous people. You recognize their names in either politics or business. And they’re coming to me and saying the pandemic had them force them to look within and recognize one that they had kind of done the checklist you just described. They got the money, they got the status. They are sought after they all are there popular authors, popular speakers, whatever they wanted to be. They got all that. And as they would say to me, I don’t know my own heart. I don’t know when I asked them, like, what do you love? What are you passionate about? They cannot, yes, it was there. They, that, that, that is not, they’ve never had permission to look within. And then, you know, almost we have to talk about what they want to be as a child. You have to get to who they really are. And, um, this, the sermon on the Mount is basically saying focus on that inner journey. Um, this outward stuff, it, you’re gonna be told this a success you’re gonna be told. This will be achievement. There is certain gratification through the whole process, but you’re going to end up empty. If that’s all that you do.
Speaker 1 00:21:17 I see an additional facet to this, which it’s all part of the same coin. Um, but in the 12 step community where I am, you know, where I’m a part of that, um, there something called the, uh, the 10th step promises and one of the 10 step promises. My favorite is we have ceased fighting anyone or anything. And when you think about the concept of we have ceased fighting anyone or anything, it’s easy to dismiss this as impractical because, well, what if there’s a war? What if there is? What if someone walks up to the street and tries to take, you know, to steal my bag? What do I do? You know? Well, the beatitudes talk a lot at, to be attitudes. The sermon on the Mount talks a lot about stopping, fighting. And even in what we just read with the beatitudes, it says, you know, uh, blessed are the meek, right?
Speaker 1 00:22:12 People who are not, uh, bold and are not, uh, asserting themselves in front of crowds, blessing are the merciful. The people who are not seeking revenge and, uh, in vengeance and all of that blessed are the peacemakers, right? Well, in order to make peace, it means you, you, you can’t engage in the fight that’s brought to your doorstep. Um, blessed are those who are persecuted blessed. Are you? When people insult you persecute, you say evil against you. So it doesn’t say, bless it. Or those who justly defend themselves. That’s not what it says. It says blessed are those who rise above the struggle and see things from a higher perspective. Blessed are those who understand that this earth world is it’s a learning ground for your soul. It and rise above it. See it from 10,000 feet and realize that when someone hurts you, they’re in pain. And how about finding a place of mercy for the pain they’re in, that causes them to lash out and to hurt others. And to say, they’re not doing this because of me. I’m not even a part of this. They don’t know how else to soothe the burning pain inside their spirit, other than to do this. And I hope they find a way to do that. You know, that for me is what it stirs in my heart. When I read about it. It’s,
Speaker 2 00:23:44 It’s very hearing you talk about it. Cause I can see, you can almost see the spiritual enter the energy and inner life and the work you’ve been doing in your own life. And it’s just coming, right. It’s it’s there it’s, it’s it’s then
Speaker 1 00:23:56 Don’t let him I’m sweating right now. And don’t confuse
Speaker 2 00:23:58 Any of that with not being powerful, because what you just said was very powerful. It’s just that for all the things you just described, they are only accomplished when you’re at peace within yourself, it cannot be accomplished by being at war with others and at war with yourself. It’s the state of being that the, the ability to get to those goals, and those are goals to be meek and a situation where you want to brag, or when you’re, um, being merciful, particularly refer, not wanting to engage in revenge. Those are all, um, spiritual disciplines. And as I say, my own life, I work on all of those. I think when I see the change taking place in my life, when I don’t hold a grudge anymore, when I can see that, actually everybody I’m engaging with is a child of God. And if you want to get really mystical about it, part of me, we’re all part of the same.
Speaker 2 00:24:50 That’s right. Um, I’m, I’m, I’m talking, I’m talking to, uh, you know, part of the creation, I’m part of the creation as is the trees, the woods, the forest. Um, so we’re all part of this. So, um, this is a child of God that God loves us as much as God loves me. And I’ve now projected all this onto them. Um, I will add, I just to be clear because I get this question from women a lot, um, you know, does, does that require you to, uh, stay in abusive relationships? So I just want to be point blank. No, of course, no. Um, we’re we, we, we should not, and that has been manipulated. The texts of this have been used manipulatively by religious leaders to keep women in abusive situations and so forth and say, Hey, look, the husband submit yourself to your husband. So I just want to be super clear that that’s not what it’s saying. It’s but it is talking about a state of being yes. And deal with, uh, frankly you’re dealing with evil or, um, you know, challenges.
Speaker 1 00:25:49 Yes. And, uh, I, I’m glad that you mentioned that because, um, when I talk, when I’ve talked with people, I gave a, I gave a workshop on, um, what does it mean to stop fighting in a practical sense? And, you know, we’ve just gone through a very volatile election. I mean like any election isn’t volatile, but we went through a really raw election and people are saying, what do you mean? I’m not supposed to fight. I’m watching, I’m watching an attack on the people who can’t defend themselves. It’s my role and my responsibility to step up and fight for them. And my challenge to that is calling your Congressman is not fighting. Voting is not fighting, but when you engage another person where your goal is to have them submit to your point of view, that’s fighting, that’s different than flexing the power. That naturally is yours as a part of this system.
Speaker 1 00:26:50 You know, it’s about, to me, it’s about ego. Does my ego get brought into this argument? Or can I simply explain my perspective and unattached from what the other person says back? You know, because that’s the difference to me between fighting and, um, taking care of yourself if someone hits me. Okay. Th the challenge is, uh, do I, do I walk away and not care that some people might see me as a coward or, uh, does my ego flare up and require me to be seen as equal to, or greater than the person who hit me. Right. And the fact is it’s, it’s mythology, right? It’s only my ego that wants to feel like I wasn’t a sucker, right. I’ve already been punched. That’s over. Do I get punched in again? Or do I walk away? You know, um, because I have the ability to fight or to simply defend myself in another way, which is to remove myself from the situation. And I don’t mean to simplify situations like abusive marriages or anything. I’m talking more along, uh, in more general terms. Um, but there is, in my view, a guidance in these words that says, uh, is there a way to take care of yourself that involves avoiding causing another person to submit?
Speaker 2 00:28:18 Yeah, the reason I do the, uh, the public policy work and the political work is I’m very worried about the fact that we’ve lost that in our political culture. So now, um, the idea has traditionally been well. We want to get people to agree with us. That’s not the goal of a pluralistic country. It’s basically to say you and I disagree. And, um, we disagree strongly, and I believe the tax code should be this. You believe it should be that. I believe that we should have tariffs. You don’t, I believe this on immigration. You believe that, but I can still love you. That’s what’s missing. What we’ve done is now said that those political views that you hold, um, are evil and it’s really a form of puritanical religion. That’s come back into the culture again, where now you’re a heretic. Uh, I, and I must, if you’re evil, um, I have no choice, but to be violent against you.
Speaker 2 00:29:12 Yeah. Cause I must subdue evil. And if that violence means canceling you at your job, um, getting you fired, getting you publicly humiliated, I’ll start there. But if it also means, uh, physically physical violence, that’s okay because I’m doing it for good. And that’s a very, very dangerous energy that could rip everything apart in this country. And of course it manifested itself, um, most dramatically on January 6th when it was unbelievable. We had an insurrection at our Capitol, which I, you know, many of us couldn’t have imagined in our lifetime. And so we’re, we, we have the choice to descend down that spiral down where we can have people like you, who are doing what you’re doing and the leadership you’re providing to a new generation and talking about love, compassion, forgiveness, and notice. It’s not agreement agreement. It is not about agreeing no thing. I completely disagree with you on this. And I love you to death and we have to get that back or we’re going to be in big trouble.
Speaker 1 00:30:18 Yeah. And you know, in the sermon on the Mount Jesus doubles down on this, just a few verses later, when we get to, let me see, I’ll tell you, um, Matthew chapter five, verse 38 to 42, uh, Jesus says, do, do, do, do you have heard it was said, I for an eye and tooth for a tooth, but I tell you do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them, the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to Sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. And then on verse 43, you have heard it was said, love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I tell you love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your father in heaven. He causes his son to rise on the evil and the good and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Speaker 1 00:31:14 And there’s this just weaves so beautifully through so much of what we’ve already said. I’ve also, I’ve often been confused by, um, by verse 40, which says, if someone takes your shirt, give them your coat too, am like, what does that even mean? But on this spiritual journey that I’ve had over the past couple of years, like, it’s like, it’s so clear to me. And it comes back to if someone hurts you, whether they steal, they disrespect, they, they hit whatever they are in pain. And they will go through their own journey of eventual healing from the pain. Uh, and they have their own karma and they have their own suffering that they’re dealing with. And if you can just recognize that the depth of the suffering that causes them to hurt you, then you can say, take it, take it. Because by doing that, you are not adding to their suffering. They’re going to have to pay for what they’re doing on a different level, on soul, on a soul level. And all we can do is say, wow, that person is in pain. You know, and that message to me, it just blares out in neon lights now.
Speaker 2 00:32:34 Yeah. What you’ve developed Johnny, which is, I would say SPE, a spiritually of person is deep empathy. The ability to be in another person’s shoes, our natural tendency is to be selfish. We are the heroes of our own story. Our stories about us, everything that bad has happened has been done against us by evil forces, everything good in our life is the good things we’ve done. Anything we’ve done wrong is because we were forced to do it. And we were punished. You’re saying actually, no, get into the other person’s shoes. No, they might be wounded. As we all are know that they could be in great pain. No, that they, um, are, uh, not necessarily evolved that they’re focused on, you know, on, uh, different needs. And if you can rise above it and you can truly put yourself in their shoes, that’s truly loving the other person.
Speaker 2 00:33:27 Yes. That’s the compassion that you’re, that you’re showing and that we would want to develop what Jesus is also trying to say to the religious establishment. And it would be true today. It, transactional relationships are, uh, are not what it is to follow him. He’s saying it’s not about just loving your tribe. And then your family, he even has a passage where he says, even the devil does that. Um, he’s like even the dark forces will do that. It’s really, it’s only when you can get outside of yourself and your so-called enemy and seeing the people that you hate, um, and getting that hatred out of your life. A good personification of all this Johnny and in modern life he’s overused, but, but under red is, is, uh, Reverend Martin Luther king Jr. Is the personification of that, those skills. And he’s become somewhat less popular in the current moment because people say that he was weak and that his positions were weak, particularly on non-violence. And, um, again, he, he strikes me as a very powerful force, someone really trying to live in for, for whatever reason, the last line, I just read his letter from a Birmingham jail last night. And he’s saying to the, to his, his clergy who are criticizing him for being, uh, doing what he’s doing, he’s, he’s challenging them to do exactly what as you’re asking us to think today. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:34:53 Oh, I love it. I’m like, my energy is like buzzing. I’m just like, like I can’t even control it. Uh it’s it’s it’s this is such a powerful conversation right now. Um, all right. Let’s keep charging forward. Another part of the sermon on the Mount and this one I really love because, uh, right now in my life, um, it applies very much to the path I’ve chosen. Um, it applies to a way of living that I would have never sanctioned, never sanctioned in, in all my years until now. Um, it’s the idea of not stockpiling resources for, uh, for the future, and there’s a whole spectrum of ways to apply this. And so I certainly don’t mean to imply that my personal path is the right path for others. Um, but this passage is another one that has stood out to me as, um, comforting guidance for me.
Speaker 1 00:36:00 And this is chapter seven chapter. I think it’s chapter seven, verse 25. It might be chapter six, but I think it’s chapter seven. Therefore I tell you do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink or about your body. What you will wear is not life more than food and the body more than clothes. Look at the birds of the air. They do not sow or reap or store away in barns. And yet your heavenly father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they can, any one of you by worrying at a single hour to your life, and then skipping down to verse 34 at the end of this particular section, therefore do not worry about tomorrow for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
And I, um, you know, I cashed out my 401ks to be able to take the journey that I’m taking right now.
Speaker 1 00:37:02 And, um, I’ve never once heard anyone say, oh yeah, it’s okay to cash out your 401ks. You know, and I can’t say that it was a comfortable decision. It’s not something I did joyfully. Um, but ultimately I was able to make this decision because I know that as my resources, ebb and flow, no matter how high or how low they get in each moment, I will know what to do and what to do may mean going get a second job at Starbucks, what to do may mean, um, you know, uh, getting a cheaper place to live or selling my car to pay off bills. Um, but those are all valid ways to make it through. And, uh, it’s just to me, this has been so comforting and I know that you gave a sermon on this. I remember I remember it, um, maybe in early 2020, and I’d love to hear your thoughts on what is the practicality of this idea of stop worrying about tomorrow?
Speaker 2 00:38:13 Well, the obvious thing there is the worrying. It doesn’t add anything. It adds stress. And so we’re a con work a nation, for example, in the state of worry, to the point where our mental health and our use of psychotropic drugs to deal with it is skyrocketed. And so, so no one can say, you know, I worried about this now, can you be concerned about your future and kind of plan for your future? Absolutely. You should. Um, it’s different for everybody. I would. What what’s interesting about your life and to the extent that I know your life is that you made some very big decisions in your relatively young life, that run counter to the advice that we all get. You were, you were working for a respected corporation. You’re supposed to work your way up, fill your 401k. Um, I don’t know you all that well, but I’ll say I’ll take a guess that it had, you continued on the path of that you were told to be on.
Speaker 2 00:39:10 Um, you might not even live to be an older person. So we’re talking about physical life and death. You made a dramatic change. It was bold. It is be attitudes. Jesus’ sermon on the mountain. Bold, you flipped the complete narrative, everything that you were told, I would argue did it, would it, you know, that that kind of stuff saves your soul in your life, maybe even saved your life. And now, um, we’re just really seeing the beginning of all the people you’re helping through your coaching and strategy that you’re providing to a whole new generation. You’re going to be a real to people because you’re doing what they want to do. And they know their inner voice is saying, and I’m sure you hear this all the time from clients. I want to get out of here. There’s no way out. This is how much the rent is.
Speaker 2 00:39:58 This is how much the car payment is. This is how much Starbucks costs this. There is no way out I am stuck. I hate it. And I’m worried I’m in a constant state of worrying about tomorrow and what’s so beautiful in your life is you’ve taken it. Um, but I would say you’re an example of saving a life and then saving many lives by being that model when we met that’s what was, that’s what drew me to you. It’s, there’s a charisma. There there’s a, an energy there of someone who is saying, um, I don’t have it all figured out, but I’m going to take some bold moves because I know if I stay on this path, this is what the world says. That is success. That that is not going to work for me. And how you figured that out. I guess that would be my question for you as like, from a coaching question. What was that moment where you said this narrative that I’m on, this is, this is not the path. This is not going to work because, so if you can do that.
Speaker 1 00:41:00 So, um, well, what happened to me was, um, I felt, I felt trapped by my career, like you mentioned earlier, and there was no, uh, in my view, there was no financially feasible way to get out. And so my plan was that I was going to, uh, join the Navy as an officer. It’s something that I wanted to do when I was young, but I was gay. And, uh, and there was just no way that I felt that, uh, I didn’t feel like it was the right move for me. And as a culture has shifted as my reliance on the acceptance of others has shifted. I, and as my confidence and my authority in life and my expertise in what I do has grown, I felt like I had the tools that I could not only go through it, but do it well. So I got about halfway through the process of, uh, of starting, um, uh, officer candidate school.
Speaker 1 00:41:59 And I found like my references and I took the test, the oar and all of that. And, um, I started, uh, binge eating again. Now I had a rather dramatic past with compulsive eating and, um, I gained weight and I couldn’t stop. And I worked on this. It, it, it, when I talked to the recruiter, he said, listen, if you still want to come in, you can, but you’re going to have a very unpleasant asterisk next to your name. And they will do what you can’t do for you. And I don’t recommend it. It’s very unpleasant. And you’re going to get unwanted attention from your commanding officers and whatever, until you get down to where they want you to be, as far as weight and physical health. And I was like, well, that doesn’t sound good. I’m not going to do that. So I kept trying and trying and trying, and for two, I even quit my job.
Speaker 1 00:42:55 I quit my job because I was only a few months away and I started to balloon up and, um, for two years I got help. I, uh, I dug deeper into recovery. I was seeing a therapist, I hired a personal trainer. I did everything and I still gained weight more and more and more. And after two years of beating my head against a rock, I felt utterly hopeless. And I had by then taken another job in HR because I didn’t know what else to do. And, um, and I was like, what am I going to do? This was my way out. Well, uh, in the recovery fellowship that I was in, um, someone said, it sounds like there’s a spiritual problem there. And, uh, and so this unlocked a path it started with just Googling podcasts to help me build a relationship with a higher power.
Speaker 1 00:43:58 I didn’t know how to do that. I started doing that, which led me to books, which led me to podcasts, which led me to Oprah SuperSoul conversations, which blew the doors open. As I heard all of these spiritual thought leaders talk about how they develop this path. And, um, it’s through that process that I just had a massive paradigm shift and awakening. And I started to see, um, I started to see that my life was built on this physical struggle rather than on this, um, spiritual flow. And, uh, and that’s, that’s, what’s, that’s w that’s where I’ve been for these past three years is learning how to catch these waves and surf this spiritual flow. And I just, um, I’m so grateful that something stepped in and stopped me from being on that path and being an eight year commitment to be a Naval officer, which I’m sure would have had its own benefits, but, um, something helped me and nudged me onto a path that has given me freedom.
Speaker 1 00:45:06 I, I can say I’m happy. I can say I’m happy rich. It’s the first time in my life. It’s the first time in my whole life that I can honestly say that I’m happy. And I just feel taken care of. I feel taken care of, and I just never felt taken care of. I felt like it was my job to take care of myself as if I could make myself draw one breath as if I could give myself a job as if I could give myself the ability to do anything. All of that illusion of control has been washed away. And now, um, I get what flows before me, like I receive what flows before me and that’s it. And it’s, uh, and it causes me to see things like the scriptures in a different way now.
Speaker 2 00:45:52 Wow, that’s beautiful. You are a personification really of the sermon on the Mount, which is flipping all the stories. And, uh, I do find that would be interesting if I was, if I was curious, like you were, what was interesting in your story is one. You didn’t say like I became a Christian or I became a Mormon and I became a Pentecostal. You, you open yourself up to the spirit. The spirit will guide you where you are. It you do not need to join a religion or give a name to it. The forces of good. I, I would, I would call them angels. That will sound weird to a lot of people, but I think they’re ready to work for you. They want to help steer you and guide you and nudge you. And I will say in my own life, very similar stories where I was pushed and shoved and, um, high doorways close to me, very perfectly to get back on the right path.
Speaker 2 00:46:43 It was almost like a GPS system is like, well, take a left turn at the next light, take a left turn. You turn. But I kept going on the path. Cause I, you know, um, you know, I thought that was the path. And, uh, but I knew it wasn’t and, uh, we get steered back. If we ask, if we just ask whatever you believe that forces in the universe, um, whatever name you give to it, it’s not so important, but there are good forces that want to steer us toward. Good. What I love most about your stories? You, you summarize it by saying, um, I’m at peace. I’m at peace with myself. To me, that’s the sermon on the Mount. It’s not, it’s, it’s being at peace. It’s being calm. People hire me as a coach and they say, I’m going to pay you a lot of money.
Speaker 2 00:47:29 Get me calm, you know, get, how do I get peace? I want to be like, and I always like, you’re not going to be like me. Yeah, you’re going to be you. But it’s going to take us a while to figure out who you are because it’s, it’s clouded and all these other, uh, false labels that you’ve accumulated. So it’s, it’s amazing at your, you know, at your young age that this all became so clear to you, what I’m sure you found also was all the people who naysayers you, really, what they wanted was what was best for you. Anybody who cared about you, they, but now that they see that when you say I’m happier than I’ve ever been, they’re like, well, that’s what we always wanted for him. Well, they did that. They just, they bought into, this is the, the, the, these are the five things he’s got to do.
Speaker 2 00:48:15 Yeah. And they’re almost like rules of life. If you don’t have the 401k and you don’t have this, that and the other. And, um, I won’t, I will, I will summarize it by saying, I will not be surprised that you will have enough money to retire. Yeah. That was contrary to what we’re talking about, but it is an interesting how the energy and the flow and your coaching practice and your, your teaching will multiply and grow, and you’re going to have a larger impact and people will be happy to, uh, to, to pay you for that. And we live in a material world and we have to get paid. And so we do it, but it’s not the focus. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:48:49 Yeah. Thank you for that. I appreciate it. Rich, if people are interested in visiting, uh, visiting your church or understanding more about the Swedenborgian denomination, how can they find either information on that? Or how can they find your specific church? I don’t even know because I’m in Maine right now. I don’t even know if you are having physical services or not. So give us some information on that. Sure.
Speaker 2 00:49:15 Uh, we have been doing services on zoom since a year ago and, uh, and we’re going to start a hybrid, but, um, we have people from all over the country and the world. Now we have somebody from London. Uh, so that’s five o’clock on Sundays. And, um, uh, the information is on the website, holy city, dc.org. If anybody was specifically interested, they could just email me at my name, rich tafel@gmail.com. And I can point them in the right direction to get connected to whatever it is. Um, it’s a nascent group and we’re trying to grow something, a different type of spirituality in the world, and we’d be happy for anybody who’s interested.
Speaker 1 00:49:50 Okay. All right. Perfect. And that’s, Tafel T a F E L, right?
Speaker 2 00:49:53 Right. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:49:55 All right. Perfect. Well, I think that’s a good place for us to close, and I just want to say thank you for giving so freely of your time and your expertise on this and your passion as well. And, um, I think it’s helpful for me and I hope it’s helpful for the listeners too. Rich. Thank you.
Speaker 2 00:50:11 Thank you. My pleasure. There was nothing more exciting than seeing you preach the gospel to me.
Speaker 1 00:50:16 I love it. That’s great. All right, everybody, we’re going to close it. There have a wonderful day. Be good to each other, and always remember to aim your light. You have been listening to refractive podcast, and this is Johnny G. If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, do me a favor, give it a share on social media, or if you’re in the podcast app, give it a rating. If you’re on YouTube click, like it really does make a difference in the search results. I am a speaker, coach and facilitator based in Washington, DC, but I work in person and remotely with people who are ready to step with clarity into their most authentic life. If I can be of service, reach out to me, Johnny@refractivecoaching.com have an amazing day. Be good to each other and always remember- Aim Your Light.